Caille silent sphinx help needed

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Re: Caille silent sphinx help needed

Postby marsonion » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:17 pm

Regecon wrote:Thank you for the very interesting comments. I have a 16 inch wrench which you will see in the picture. It fit perfectly around the end nut and with about three wacks, I was able to loosen the nut. Upon loosening the nut, I poured out the fluid into a white container. You can see how dirty the fluid is as there is only about 1/2 inch of fluid. I tilted the white container so you could see the difference. It does not smell. I am now ready to take the arm off the top but it appears that a long pin is holding it in. It does not have a head on it and so I cannot attach a wrench to it. In other words, it is a pin. Is there anything that I should do except hit it with a hammer?


Wow... where to begin--? Several things struck me as odd about your machine, based on what I've seen over several years:

A Cadet.
With black reel strips.
Adjustment screws for timing the reel stops and escalator.
An old-style pump casting without the "humpback" shunt gallery at the top.

Now, here you have removed the end-cap with little difficulty-- as if it's been done before-- and out comes a fluid that doesn't knock you unconscious with a single whiff.
I'm thinking your machine may have been worked-on in the past, and might even be an aggregate of parts from a variety of Caille models.
Please post a picture of the serial number from the cabinet: look to the rear edge of the base, handle side. Perhaps you'll also find a 3-digit number burned into the wood near the top casting on the handle side, too.
Many thanks for your postings-- this is really interesting!

Oh yeah, the pin that holds the crank to the shaft: that's a taper pin, and you ought to be able to tap it out if you knock it from the small end... no guarantees though, that's another evil thing. :twisted:
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Re: Caille silent sphinx help needed

Postby Regecon » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:12 pm

Three pictures are attached. On the top handle side is the number 436. Not too far below it is the number 712 or maybe 612. Along the base is the number 92436. What do these numbers mean? I will pop the pin out like you said. I can't tell yet if there are any rubber seals inside of the hydraulic regulator? If so, does the black fluid mean that the rubber has deteriorated. I used to see deteriorated rubber on all VW bug hydraulic wheel cylinders but I have no idea what is going on here. Thank you for your wonderful input.
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0221172355.jpg
Cabinet base 92436
0221172348.jpg
Either 712 or 612
0221172346.jpg
Number 436
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Re: Caille silent sphinx help needed

Postby marsonion » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:37 am

Regecon wrote:Three pictures are attached. On the top handle side is the number 436. Not too far below it is the number 712 or maybe 612. Along the base is the number 92436. What do these numbers mean? I will pop the pin out like you said. I can't tell yet if there are any rubber seals inside of the hydraulic regulator? If so, does the black fluid mean that the rubber has deteriorated. I used to see deteriorated rubber on all VW bug hydraulic wheel cylinders but I have no idea what is going on here. Thank you for your wonderful input.


From the base, we get the cabinet serial number for the Cadet that it originally was from the factory. From the mech pics you previously posted, we find a partially obscured mech serial number from the factory (look to the bottom left edge of the frame from the rear), a number ending in ...512. This indicates that the "carpet doesn't match the curtains" and that the mech may well have originally come from a Commander, as I suspected in an earlier post. I think your pump originally may have come from a Dough-Boy or earlier model, but at any rate I'm pretty sure it wasn't originally associated with this particular mech.

The three-digit numbers burned into the wood are part of another Scooby Mystery I've been trying to run down for years. More on that later, after I wake up. #-o

Added note: Yes, there are rubber (or at least rubbery) seals inside the pump. I'm not certain that the dark silt in the fluid originates from the decomposition of those seals, but I think that's certainly a reasonable hypothesis.
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allparts.jpg
Last edited by marsonion on Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Caille silent sphinx help needed

Postby marsonion » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:00 pm

Oh yeah, the three-digit numbers burned into the cabinet side... here's what I think it might be all about. On another thread, forum member mechanic wrote:

I did some research on the Knockout machines, what I found is Caille Bros sold out to Fuller Johnson Co in 1932 but kept the name and one of the bros as Pres.. The intro of the new art deco models were a hit till the pumps started having problem and then the AC Multibell flop. This was all in 1938-39. The Knockout was to be the next for the 1939 model year, however, A. Caille was in the process of selling the company. In the latter part of 39 early spring of 40 the remainder of all machines approx 2000+ plus all surplus parts were sold------ to------- Buckley Mfg. Co. they in turn finished completing all remaining Caille machines using the surplus parts and any missing parts were hand fabricated with materials on hand. This continued well into 1944 when all machines and parts were exhausted. It seems that if the company was being sold about the time the Knockout model was to be released, it probably was not put into production. It also explains why you have found machines that look like someone slapped some aluminum siding on it. Those machines may be actually Buckleys.


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1277

I haven't been able to turn up the source of mechanic's information, but I have no reason to doubt his story. Two of the Caille machines in my collection have these burned-in numbers on them, and they are both "monsters," i.e. made up of mix-and-match cabinet and mech parts from different models. The more interesting of these monsters looks like the ad illustration for a Knockout... it has the number "814" burned into it with exactly the same sort of fonts or dies used to brand yours. It also had a Mills (or Buckley--?) style club handle very cleanly grafted to it! Now, I thought this must've been done by the same person who had house-painted the cabinet blue and made several bailing-wire *ahem* "fixes" to the mech, and when I restored the cabinet to its original color scheme, I also located a Knockout-looking handle and put the Mills handle on a shelf. Several months ago I was moving some stuff and noticed that that handle hardware has the number "814" scrawled across it in orange crayon. That same scrawl can be found on the inside of a couple of other cabinet castings on the thing. I speculate that this machine was assembled on the Buckley floor as mechanic describes, and the 3-digit numbers are the floor serial codes for these monsters. I'm also thinking of reconnecting that Mills handle to the machine, to make it more *ahem* "original." #-o

Your burned-in codes coincide (imperfectly but suspiciously) with the last three digits of the cabinet and mech, respectively. Now, since it appears that you have a Cadet with the guts of a Commander and the heart of a Doughboy :D , the question is, who played Dr. Frankenstein in this scenario--?

I suspect Old Man Buckley.
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knockout nowindow.jpg
KOside.jpg
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Re: Caille silent sphinx help needed

Postby Regecon » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:26 pm

The number at the bottom left side of the base is 91812. It appears that the second set of numbers on the wood side could easily be 812. Does that help in any way?

Next I tried to knock out the pin using a nail punch so that I would not smash the head of the pin but the pin would not move. But as careful as I was, I ended up smashing the head of the pin. Would you recommend that I heat up the shaft so that the metal expands around the pin or would you recommend that I drill out the center of the pin with a fine tipped drill bit? Can these pins be replaced with new pins at hardware stores?

The end of the piston has a screw at the end. What happens after I unscrew the screw? Is there a rubber seal or what?

Third, would it be worth filling up the cylinder with new brake fluid and seeing whether I get pressure buildup now that the cylinder is clean of any dirt.

I do not have a wrench big enough to remove the top nut. What have you used? Would it be worth buying a bigger wrench or socket?

Thanks again.
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Re: Caille silent sphinx help needed

Postby marsonion » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:39 pm

Regecon wrote:The number at the bottom left side of the base is 91812. It appears that the second set of numbers on the wood side could easily be 812. Does that help in any way?

Next I tried to knock out the pin using a nail punch so that I would not smash the head of the pin but the pin would not move. But as careful as I was, I ended up smashing the head of the pin. Would you recommend that I heat up the shaft so that the metal expands around the pin or would you recommend that I drill out the center of the pin with a fine tipped drill bit? Can these pins be replaced with new pins at hardware stores?

The end of the piston has a screw at the end. What happens after I unscrew the screw? Is there a rubber seal or what?

Third, would it be worth filling up the cylinder with new brake fluid and seeing whether I get pressure buildup now that the cylinder is clean of any dirt.

I do not have a wrench big enough to remove the top nut. What have you used? Would it be worth buying a bigger wrench or socket?

Thanks again.



Maybe we should move this discussion to PM to avoid boring-to-death the casual forum browsers; as usual, I have more questions than answers, but I'll try:

1) Two different serial numbers on the edge of the cabinet base of a Cadet--? Never seen that, but I probably shouldn't be surprised. No idea whether that's meaningful or not. Posting a couple of pics of my (confusing) Cadet serial number locations.
2) Most times I can recall (getting old) simply tapping that pin out from the small end of the taper with little difficulty. Never thought I needed to use heat, but I recall one instance where I did have to drill the damn thing out. :oops: I think it was already sort of gnarly from historical efforts. Yes, you can find taper pins that'll fit at major hardware store chains, including even that one.
3) The screw at the top of the piston is a shoulder screw. Don't lose it! It retains a washer-like cap on the piston which acts like a valve during operation. Think about it and you'll see why this is so. No, there is/was no seal nor sealant associated with those parts so far as I know.
4) "Third, would it be worth filling up the cylinder with new brake fluid and seeing whether I get pressure buildup now that the cylinder is clean of any dirt." Answer: YES.
5) Here's a picture of what I've been using: http://ace.imageg.net/graphics/product_ ... enh-z7.jpg
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Cadet Top Casting912968.jpg
Cadet91296.jpg
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Re: Caille silent sphinx help needed

Postby Regecon » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:43 pm

I am still figuring out how this board works and just saw your PM. Sorry. I will start PM'ing tomorrow. Meanwhile, the number 91812 is the mechanical serial number. It is punched into the metal on the lower left side of the mechanism itself (when you look at the machine from the rear). There is no serial number near the 5C sign per your picture. Sorry for my confusion.

I think that the metal case has been painted and refurbished once. if you look at the photo of the front of my machine, you will see that the small chrome piece on left side of the glass is by the bottom of the glass. The small chrome piece on the right side of the glass is at the middle of the glass. Someone before me reinstalled these pieces in this manner.

I will refill the regulator tomorrow and see whether I get any pressure buildup. Given all of the particulate matter (ie dirt) in the fluid, it is definitely worth a try.
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Re: Caille silent sphinx help needed

Postby Beads » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:33 pm

I am new to slots and enjoy ready this thread and all the others. It's great how there is so much knowledge and is attitude free on this site!!! Mind you a little attitude does show its ugly head once in a blue moon.....then the thread disappears??
Thank you all for my free education on slots.
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Re: Caille silent sphinx help needed

Postby marsonion » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:48 pm

Beads wrote:I am new to slots and enjoy ready this thread and all the others. It's great how there is so much knowledge and is attitude free on this site!!! Mind you a little attitude does show its ugly head once in a blue moon.....then the thread disappears??
Thank you all for my free education on slots.


That's awfully kind of you, Beads! But sometimes, even my eyes glaze-over as we slog through the mechanical minutiae of slot machine repair... especially with regard to the repair of despised, virtually uncollectible slots such as Columbias and late-'30s Cailles.

BUT-- We gotta get them working! We gotta we gotta we GOTTA!!! :lol:
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Re: Caille silent sphinx help needed

Postby SLOT DYNASTY » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:48 am

marsonion:
Take under consideration, while doing your research of odd-ball machine numbers, that many operators
had a habit of stamping their personal number, or a location number, on their machines. Usually 2 or 3
digits. Many Trade Stimulators are found with such numbers, and some people think they are serials.
There are some real early cast iron machines, that will have 2 digit serial numbers. But for the most part,
all Trade Stimulators from the late 1920's to 1950's, all started with either 100 or 101.
Bill
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