ANOTHER COMPOSITE SLOT WITH A WHOPPER OF A STORY & AND PRICE

[oldslotman]

Whenever I see a machine like this I think of a song that Johnny Cash sang. He sang about a guy that worked in a factory that made Cadillac cars. Each day he would take home one piece of a Cadillac and after about 20 years or so he had enough parts to make a Cadillac. All the parts were original Cadillac parts but from many different years or models. In the end he did have a Cadillac car with all original parts but it was not a car that Cadillac made. It was a car that he made.

That's a great story but it doesn't apply to my machine. Just look at the historical evidence, we know that these machines were destroyed in the 1930s as being evil products from morally corrupt businessmen. Since I know that my particular machine sat in the same house since it was built in the same time period, so I'm relatively sure of the time period it was combined and maybe restored. The restoration itself, if indeed that's what was done, is antique. This history is a much different characterization than what many of you here have made.
The basic economic truth is that the value of anything sold in the marketplace is determined by buyers. I've been honest and as precise as I can be to describe my slot machine. Anyone with a stack of Ben Franklin's will be saavy enough to determine for their self what the value of my machine is. I understand from what you've written that I may be aiming high with the price I've set based on current market conditions as you see in your businesses. I also understand from other postings on your site that many of the slots being sold as antique today are nothing of the sort because they've been worked on over the past 20-30-40 years. The disreputable dealer makes is difficult for the honest ones to do an honest business. I get that. What I'm selling, however, is unique for exactly the reasons I've detailed in my listing, and I'll stand by that and let the marketplace decide what it's really worth.
Don't be a hater. I wouldn't do that to your business or the items you sell there.
—VintColl

The point I'm trying to make is the fact that Mills did not combine the parts from 2 or 3 different machines to make that one. Someone other than Mills put that machine together whether it was 80 years ago or 8 years ago, it is still not a machine that Mills made. You are right, the value of the machine is only what someone is willing to pay for it. I myself consider old slot machines as more of a vintage collectable than a antique. JMHO

[Dave]

VintColl:

You make some pretty bold statements.

Just what are your qualifications to make them?

How long have you been buying / selling slots? How many total slots have you bought or sold?

Have you written any books or articles on antique slot machines? If so, please point us to them?

Have you made any public appearances and talked about antique slot machines? If so, please let us know.

Do you run any websites about antique slot machines? Again, please point us to them.

So, please educate us on your qualifications around antique slot machines.

If you have zero qualifications then, really, why are you making such statements? Making uninformed statements just makes one look foolish.

Finally, I agree with a previous poster. List your item at a dollar and let the market determine its true value. I am guessing the true value is well under $1,000. Of course, what do I know

If you really feel the true value is so high then you might want to put it in a high profile auction like VCA. They get good prices for high quality stuff. Over $90,000 for a Caille Globe.

I have a pretty good feeling that if you contacted them and showed them what you had and told them what you thought it was worth they would get a really good chuckle out of it.

[VintageCollectibles]

The point I'm trying to make is the fact that Mills did not combine the parts from 2 or 3 different machines to make that one. Someone other than Mills put that machine together whether it was 80 years ago or 8 years ago, it is still not a machine that Mills made. You are right, the value of the machine is only what someone is willing to pay for it. I myself consider old slot machines as more of a vintage collectable than a antique. JMHO

All of you have points about what is clearly your passion, others of you have points but they're on top of your heads. At least, Oldslotman seems to have gotten some of the main thrust of my listing and rationale behind it. The market will determine what this item is worth. I'm not misrepresenting it —read my listing again, I say that Mills didn't assemble it as is— but it DOES matter when it was put together.
I don't have to prove anything to you guys. None of you have offered the things you claim I should be doing for buyers: proof that this machine isn't unique and that other machines like this exist with the history I've detailed, and a reasonable offer. According to you, I'd turn down any reasonable offer anyway, so what difference would it make except to show that every one of you is willing to put your money where your mouths are, or in your cases, your self-proclaimed expertise?
—VinColl

[gamblingman]

Gotta say I love this site, and I have the utmost respect for all of you such as myself who are so passionate about vintage slots and coin operated devices........especially for those of you that have amassed a wealth of knowledge from being in this industry for so many years. With that said, I also understand why you are trying to protect this industry, and especially new and unsuspecting buyers just coming in......however, I can do without all of the argumentative e-mails in my inbox. I think it is great we point out the obvious fakes, composites, etc. But I think past that it serves no purpose to argue with folks who are never going to see this from the same perspectives as the rest of us. In a lot of ways, I think this type of banter just hurts the reputation of our group as much as those putting together the "Frankenstein" machines.....how many folks get scared away from posting a valid question because they are afraid of getting jumped on. They then either don't join in, or buy with their fingers crossed, hoping they didn't get taken. My personal take is we should just post the warning, and then answer any legitimate questions to the best of our ability. Anything beyond that is pointless.

[buzzojoe]

Ok,
I'm all for correcting people who outright lie about machines that they are selling. But I must say that it's kind of disturbing how some people on this forum go way out of their way to "punish" people and sabotage their auctions and sales.
If you aren't interested in buying the machine from the seller, just point out something(s) that you see "wrong" with their machine and then let it go.
In this case, the seller is claiming that the machine was put together decades ago, but people are disputing that. In my decades of collecting coin op stuff, I've seen plenty of "frankenstein" machines that were put together by operators back in the day. One time I did a warehouse buy in Gary Indiana where several pinball machines had completely different heads on them than what the game was. The operators did what they had to do to keep the coins coming in, and weren't thinking "I had better keep this machine 100% original or I should probably just throw it away so that some collector 50 years from now doesn't get upset"...
There are guys who go around our local car shows making uncalled for comments about cars when people are looking at buying them. "Ummm, those are reproduction exhaust tips, and I think those are 1968 Camaro radio knob on this 1969"... I've never understood the mentality of trying to mess up someone else's deal unless they are intentionally portraying the item as something that it is not.
I've dealt with most of the old school "COCA" guys over the years, and I have seen machines with reproduction or incorrect parts in many of their booths at shows like Chicagoland. I've also seen "retail plus" prices on machines in many of their booths. Now before you all come to kill me, I have been guilty of those same things in my own booth! But when someone questions a marquee on a trade stimulator or an incorrect globe on a gumball/peanut machine the typical response from the old school guy is "everyone knows that you NEVER find this machine with the original marquee, so if you see one with a marquee, it's a reproduction", and "It's ok to sell an Atlas Ace with a Silver King globe because it fits perfectly and there aren't any Ace globes available anymore". And I've never seen a sign on a machine in a Chicagoland show booth (including my own) that says "WARNING! THIS PRICE IS 50% HIGHER THAN THE CURRENT EBAY OR VCA AUCTION PRICES". I have some machines that I will sell if someone wants to pay me a premium for them, but I'm not going to sell them for a certain price just because that's what the last 4 of them went for on Ebay...
Again, I agree that people should be warned about people who intentionally portray ANY fake item as legitimate, whether it's a coach purse, Z28 Camaro or slot machine. But I personally don't want to go around looking to crucify people for their "high" prices or because they put reproduction hubcaps on the pedal car they are selling without putting a neon sign next to it saying "WARNING! REPRODUCTION HUBCAPS"! I know that I SURE don't want people doing that to me!!!!

[SLOT DYNASTY]

Everyone on this Forum, that is trying to educate VC as to what he is preaching, are not going to penetrate through the thickness. The first red flag in the description is the multiple use of the word RARE.
It is the most misused word in all collectable categories, and tends to be the main reason to place an insane price on an item. Sure, it's rare to the person selling it, because they have never seen one before.
With all the babbling-on in the description, it appears that some things have been omitted. Where is the part about being a 'historian', and 'researching the machine for 7 years'? It seams to have vanished.

First of all, you pick the name "Poinsettia" out of the sky for the top casting. That casting design started life as the "Operators Bell", and was used for many years afterwards, on a multitude of different models.
The case itself can be from either model, but this one is most likely, originally all "Lion Head", and the earlier top casting was fit there by an operator. It was a poor choice, because the upper casting is narrower,
and doesn't line-up well with the lower. But who cared back then! Most operators made a habit of mixing castings on machines, to attract players into thinking it was a new machine. I know this for a fact, as I have
personally spoke to several old-time operators that did this. So, in essence, all you have is a "Lion Head" with an "O.B." top casting, that was repainted to match the lower half, which could have been done in the
30's, through the early 50's. You may also want to take a closer look at the coin traveling mechanism. You describe it as "moving the nickels ACROSS very smoothly". It appears to me that they are moving DOWNWARD,
as they should for a gooseneck model. Oh, and the Free Play feature doesn't work? Well, that lowers the price for sure! It is always best to get your facts straight, before carrying-on like a so-called expert. You can
rerun this auction til dooms-day, but no-one is going to open the bidding at your price, let alone the BIN. As suggested earlier, start the bids a $1.00, or even $100.00 Someone will surely want it, because it's a bit
different, of an operator change-over, not because it's RARE. Give me a break!

[watlingboy]

Nomally I don't respond to these mud slinging sessions but I got caught up in this one. Here's the long and the short of it, someone had a Wolf's head, the top casting got broken, it was replaced and someone did a hideous paint job on it, that's it, period. I hear what you're saying, at the time the top casting was replaced, that's now it new production date. So it is original and untouched from the time it got all screwed up. It doesn't work like that. That's like you saying you are now a virgin again. You claim you have provenance and you're an historian, you don't have jack because you can't prove when that top casting was replaced and even if you could, it would mean nothing to the value or anything else, you have no history or provenance. I'm all for someone making a buck but with the gray area, slimey wording you are trying. Unless you can suck someone into your fantasy story, your machine is worth $650 to $750.

Watlingboy

[Dave]

Gotta say I love this site, and I have the utmost respect for all of you such as myself who are so passionate about vintage slots and coin operated devices........especially for those of you that have amassed a wealth of knowledge from being in this industry for so many years. With that said, I also understand why you are trying to protect this industry, and especially new and unsuspecting buyers just coming in......however, I can do without all of the argumentative e-mails in my inbox. I think it is great we point out the obvious fakes, composites, etc. But I think past that it serves no purpose to argue with folks who are never going to see this from the same perspectives as the rest of us. In a lot of ways, I think this type of banter just hurts the reputation of our group as much as those putting together the "Frankenstein" machines.....how many folks get scared away from posting a valid question because they are afraid of getting jumped on. They then either don't join in, or buy with their fingers crossed, hoping they didn't get taken. My personal take is we should just post the warning, and then answer any legitimate questions to the best of our ability. Anything beyond that is pointless.

I hear what you are saying and appreciate the point you are trying to make.

However, I can't recall a single case when someone has been jumped on for asking any question.

The only time someone gets jumped on is when they make a claim which is just ridiculous. In almost all cases this is an ebay auction where someone is making ridiculous claims about a machine or trying to get a ridiculous price because they think it is 'rare'.

When these people are informed that there machine is either a fantasy machine or their price is unreasonable all of the sudden THEY get on their high horse and then start spouting even more bull. That is a big mistake when you are in a forum with as much knowledge that this place has.

If VC can sell that thing for $12K then good for him as long as he doesn't misrepresent it.

OK, time to get off my soapbox.

[nvmos2]

Can’t we all just get along?
From 6000 years of human history, the answer is clearly NO.

For all;
I’ve had a series of emails with this seller via the ebay msg system concerning his slot. Our exchanges have been civilized, but a little defensive because he assumed that I (and others who contacted him) am a dealer who is just trying to denigrate his machine to steal it at a low price.

He stated that his father acquired the machine in 1962 in its present configuration. He indicated he had some knowledge of its previous owner(s?), but did not share that with me. He does not know who put it together or when.

My impressions: he is definitely a Newbie when it comes to vintage slots. He has done some research, but has barely scratched the surface.
Although the slot has been in his family for 50 years, he would sell it if the price is right (avarice?). He actually wants to know more about his slot and he has revised his listing based upon the input he has received.

I think this machine is made from at least 3 machines:
The castings are 2 machines.
The listing states the serial number 224948 is “stamped on interior of lower cabinet.” That indicates a 3rd machine since it does not match the top casting and, from the serial number list, is too early (approx 1928) for a Lion’s Head.
The mechanism may represent a 4th machine (who knows? - its probably been swaped out at some point anyway). The Free Play on Lemon may provide a clue. If it’s from the Lion’s Head, I would think the “original” award card would reference the feature. I vaguely remember reading somewhere what model(s) had that feature, but the source is long gone from my memory bank.

For Ron/VintageCollectables;
Welcome to the forum.
There is a wealth of information available to you from the members here. Unfortunately, I’m afraid you got off to a bad start with your initial insulting post. With an attitude adjustment and an open mind, you can learn a lot about your slot here.

As far as value is concerned, here is some objective info from other “one -of-a-kind” composite machines on ebay;
There is currently a composite Castle Front/Futurity (item #201023219174) listed with a back story somewhat similar to yours.
It has been listed continuously over and over for months with a starting bid of $2400 and has received no bids.
Another composite Castle Front/Futurity recently sold for $985 (item #131067296118).
A composite Bursting Cherry/Horse Head sold a while back for less than $1500. Perhaps someone else remembers or made a note of the exact selling price.

Jim

[Midcoast Vintage]

SELLER HAS RE-LISTED WITH A LOWER PRICE...BUT STILL W-A-Y TOO HIGH FOR A COMPOSITE MACHINE.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Mills-N ... 23354ef90c