REAR Mills 25 Cent Diamond Fake Slot Machine

[marsonion]

eBay item number:261464203657

"For sale: a rare Mills 25 Cent Diamond Front Slot Machine.

This machine, called a Diamond Front, was a model made by Mills Novelty in Chicago, lL. This model was introduced in 1939 and was made into late 1941. Due to the limited time of production, this machine is truly one for the collector!

This machine was lovingly restored by a professional, and has seen over 70 years of use."



I'll admit it's sort of interesting to consider what all of the various atoms and molecules that comprise the assorted materials involved in the fabrication of this late 20th Century mockery were actually up to 70 years ago...

[marsonion]

eBay item number:261464203657

The auction ended a few days ago, shortly after a Q&A exchange was posted in which an eBayer pointed out that the machine is a reproduction. Amazingly, the seller insists that the machine is "not a reproduction," but was merely "restored" with a "longer handle" to make it easier to pull!

I guess this purported restoration also involved removing the check detector rod and replacing the original back door with a flat-fake one and then reconfiguring the mech to pay out on a single cherry for a quarter. Sheesh.

[nvmos2]

Clearly a reproduction.
Strangely, it appears to have an old cash box.

Appears to be a sad story (assuming it's true); the widow remembers what her husband said about the machine (maybe she got it wrong) and will not believe anything else;
probably best to let it alone. At least she posted the comment about the machine; which is something many (or most) sellers would not do.

I don't know who is making that award bib, but I think it is readily available through the big parts supplier in Chicago.
This forum gives a lot of attention to the Vegas Butcher, but that guy is a big source for fake slots.

[slotbuyer1972]

I have been reading the messages on this board for a couple of months now and keep wanting to say something but my mother always told me if you have nothing nice to say keep your mouth shut. I also learned in the last 34 years of buying and selling thousands of slot machines not to say anything much less put it into a post unless you are sure and have some knowledge. As far as I know no one ever mass reproduced Diamond front machines.If you had 10 Diamond front machines only 5 might be original Mills machines. Most were made during the war years by companies like American coin ,Buckley ,Baker and many more. It was the last machine that Mills made before WW2 and thousands of War Eagles ,Blue fronts.Brown fronts etc were converted to the newest machine at that time. Do you call a 70+ year old machine a reproduction. 30+years ago Tom Noel made that longer handle thinking people would like an easier playing machine. I never bought any but lots of them were sold not only for reproductions. I suggest you have more than a little knowledge before you post and contact sellers that it is a reproduction machine. This is not the only machine that has been wrongly ID as a reproduction. No I am not a fan of reproduction machines Never built one but sadly see a lot of them come in for repair.

[nvmos2]

slotbuyer;
Glad that you decided to share your vast knowledge on this forum.
Yes; you need to listen to your mother.

It sounds like you actually remember the WWII era, if so you may remember the time when Mills machines were unabashedly copied from coast to coast. COPIES: sounds pretty much the definition of a reproduction. So yes, a reproduction can be 70 years old. Perhaps it'd be more palatable to call it a vintage reproduction.

You have actually supported, perhaps unintentionally, the contention that this machine is a reproduction; don’t know where you came up with the 5 out of 10 number, surely you must be accurate, and right off the bat, that indicates only a 50/50 chance this machine is original. Nobody said the Diamond Front has been mass reproduced; perhaps under all that paint there is an original Mills casting, but you should be aware that you can buy complete casting sets for the Diamond Front today; add in modern-day reproductions/fakes, and the chances are even less than 50/50.

The subject machine was listed as a Rare Mills Diamond Front “restored by a professional.” From photos/description you cannot tell what, if any, part of this machine is original Mills.
Some of the wood cabinet looks older, but looking closely, and in particular the left side, looks recent.
Even the seller agrees that the handle is not original.
The award bib design does not correspond to at least some Diamond Front advertising, but it is the same design as a reproduction bib sold today.
Surely you do not think that sheet metal back door and lock are Mills products.
The reel strips and back door paper are not even made to look aged.
Besides, it cannot possibly be an original cabinet; it does not have a Genuine Mills sticker on the side! For a good comparison of a cabinet that appears original, see item number 11324534494.

If you are aware of the evolution of the Mills mechanism, you may be able to say if it is the correct mech for a Diamond Front, but even a casual observer can see some problem signs with this mech from the single photo provided.

You should not assume that someone posting here improperly contacted the seller. You know what assUme means. I’ve had no contact with the seller.

At this point, seems like nobody knows if there is anything Mills original on this machine.
Would it be fair to say this machine is a common over-restored composite vintage/repro machine of unknown origin? Hope you continue to contribute to our learning experience while making your mother proud..
Seriously; with your experience, you may actually know something that nobody else on the forum knows and it would be good of you to share it.

[marsonion]

I never contacted the seller in any way either (it's certainly not my style to go all-caps-yelling at unfortunate elderly ladies) and I first saw slotbuyer1972's complaint only today, after nvmos2 had already responded to it. I reviewed the eBay item pictures to look it over once more in light of SB72's concerns, and I invite any and all to do the same. I still don't see even one square inch of that product that doesn't practically scream repro: restored originals simply don't look like that, inside or out. Nvmos and I have listed several specifics, but even in the absence of such particular evidence, this thing just doesn't pass the smell test. True, Royal Bell didn't "remanufacture" any Diamond Fronts (that I know of), but it is certain that many DF castings were reproduced and sold over the last few decades, and it would be too easy to fake a DF from readily available Mills repro/SEGA gear. Something exactly like item number 261464203657 would be the inevitable result of that sort of effort, so far as I can determine. Restored Original? Not so much. Nothing short of replacing absolutely everything but the fully stripped original front and top castings themselves would result in such a "restoration."

Now, slotbuyer1972, who apparently joined the forum specifically in order to protest that this machine actually is original (or at least that it could be a 70-years-old repro) and has been chomping at the bit for months with similar objections to other forum postings, must have a very strong case to make for his point of view. He must have some convincing evidence gleaned from his many years of experience picking the originals from the repros. I'm here to learn. Seriously. What is the tip-off that item number 261464203657 is an original, not a fake? Where is the evidence that any part of it is 70 years old? Nvmos2 says the cashbox and parts of the cabinet wood look sort of original-- to me they just look a little beat-up. Where's the 70-years-old smoking gun here? Because... everything I see points to Recent and to Fake.

Yet I've definitely been wrong before...

[Dave]

Ask the seller who the professional was that did the restoration. He / she should have no reason not to say who did the restoration.

[Swami]

I can sit silent no longer. I too only joined this forum a few months ago but have been collecting Slot Machines for over 25 years. My name is Chris and I know a few members on this site. The others are just people out there in cyber space. I know NOTHING about Mills Diamond fronts so I won't comment on the actual machine that has everyone all worked up. My area of expertise is Original Frank Polk machines (I had 23 of them at my peak of collecting) and Jennings Chiefs, Sun, Star, Buckaroo, Prospectors, Monte Carlo, and a few others (my collection was second to none before I started selling them off on ebay) and Authentic Las Vegas Slots from the 1940's and 1950's.

I will however comment on Slotbuyer1972, and the same few people bashing him that seem to go after everyone that doesn't agree with them. Slotbuyer1972 has been in this hobby for a very long time. I have personally known him for more than 20 years. He is an Extremely Knowledgeable Collector and has a ton of knowledge to share if you guys don't run him off!!! I'm sure his Mother is Proud of him. I am Proud to call Slotbuyer1972 my friend. Like myself, I believe he would much rather help a collector than attack one. But this forum has gone crazy with the attacks. In the short time I have been on the forum I have read more negative comments about Fred in Vegas, and others that are not liked. I 100% agree that Fred puts out some interesting stuff. But really, is it nescessary to fill the forum with Trash Talk about these people on an almost daily basis. We get it, be careful.

People come to the forum for Help and/or expertise. They are not here to listen to the same guys constantly slamming others. If I were a New Collector and found this forum, with all it's negative comments I would run and never look back. As an example; everytime someone makes a post about wanting a Jennings Sun Chief, it is immediately followed up with a comment like "I constantly PREACH to people to stay away from ALL Sun Chief's no matter what" then go find yourself a nice "Barn Find" If a newbie comes to the site looking for a Sun Chief, help them find a Sun Chief, DON'T scare them away. We don't all collect Watlings, Superior, Callie, or whatever else. How boring would it be if everytime you visited a collection it had 5 Pace Comets, and the next 200 people you went to visit had 5 Pace Comet's, and nothing else...

A few months ago, a Chip Dealer friend of mine contacted me. He asked me if I had any Authentic Las Vegas Casino slot machines for sale. He said he had a friend in Las Vegas that wanted one with Vegas History. I sent him a photo of 3 New Pioneer Club Hi Tops. I said I was in the machines $2,500 each and would be happy if I could Cash Out. A few days later my picture shows up on this forum with this question "I was offered these machines for $2,500 each, is that a good deal" That post came from the potential buyer, not my dealer friend. Fatman says " Yes, it's a great deal...For the seller" Of course Fatman doesn't factor in the Pedigree, the fact that this buyer wants an Authentic Las Vegas machine, the fact that these machines, in this configuation are quite uncommon. You see, this buyer didn't want a Hi Top out of a VFW Club in Nebraska or New Jersey, he wanted Las Vegas Pedigree. For those of you that are not familiar with Las Vegas machines from that time period, they are NOT COMMON. Fatman never asked the potential buyer about his needs, his timeline, his desire for pedigree, nothing. Instead he just made a Smart A-- Comment. Also, nobody offered this person options for a different machine. Just a blanket snide remark. I never said the machines were a Good Deal or a Bad Deal, just what I had in them and a little bit about their history.

My points is, people come here for help. Not to be told what to like, what not to like, who to buy from, who not to buy from,etc... Please try to turn the negative to positive, you'll feel better and the hobby and the forum will grow.

Regarding ebay; it is not perfect, but it is the best we have. Sure they have some Messed Up rules and the fees have gone up quite a bit since 1998 when I joined. On the other hand, where else can you list a machine For Sale for free, reach out to over 50 million potential buyers, and make new friends all at the same time. I listed a Buckaroo on ebay several months ago, a buyer from the netherlands saw it, contacted me, bought it privately, and bought two others after the fact. My total cost to ebay was ZERO. I have sold over 50 machines privately to buyers that found me on ebay. Stop slamming ebay, not everything listed is junk. Not all the sellers are crooks, Not all the machines are Repo's.

I'm not looking for trouble, so please, don't all start coming after me with your Bow and Arrows. I'm just stating my thoughts.

[terick2104]

Without seeing the machine in person - two red flags that point it to being a reproduction is the new cabinet and the late 1940's Hightop Mechanism.

[gamblingman]

Well said Swami......I too am tired of my inbox filling up with negativity. Constructive answers to questions are always welcome, as I always strive to learn from the "experts"....however I can do without the personal attacks.