Fraud alert on Bird Of Paradise on E-Bay

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Postby cashpaidauctions » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:53 pm

Thank you for being nice this time, I will add it.
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Postby SLOT DYNASTY » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:10 pm

Dave wrote:You have to give the guy credit for at leasting coming here to try and explain his position.

Too bad he didn't respond to any of us who contacted him until he found out that he might get delisted for selling misrepresented items on E-Bay.

Too bad he still does not list all the stuff missing from the machine (Jackpot, vendor, gold award, back door, bonnet, escalator, etc.).

Isn't it easy to say, hey, don't blame me I am not an expert. However, if you look at the description, he sure makes it sound like he is an expert.

If he really had a slot collector look at the machine he would not have listed it that way in the first place. Why didn't he tell us what the slot collector had to say about the machine? I think we all know the answer to that.

Regarding the other machine, I told him how to check to see if the castings were iron (use a magnet). So he knows but does not want to admit it. He still claims that machine is close to 100 years old.

I actually don't have that big of a problem with the other machine since it at least has the right parts on it.

Isn't it interesting that the two high bidders (on the RAT) have a total of 3 feedbacks between the two of them?

His last post about shills makes no sense.


Well Dave, it's nice to know that you have a seller or two, that is not a machine collector, monitoring this forum. I do not remember anyone else in the past that has joined in on the chit-chat while being ragged on. Yes,
I am the one that called him a "jerk-off", as I would anyone else that slammed the phone rudely in my ear. Furthermore, I did not say anything rude to him. All I got in was, "do you have any idea what the "Bird of Paradise" is that you are selling"? He said "yes". I said "it is not a totally correct machine, and some corrections should be made to your description, stating that it is missing".......... That's as far as I got, before he replied "thanks for calling", and hung up. If I was being rude, I'd hate to hear his comment about someone that really does present themselves that way, and I know a couple.

Being as this seller has been making somewhat of an attempt to doctor up his description, I would consider retracting my "jerk off" comment, if he is equally willing to apologize for his rude behavior in cutting me off mid-sentence. Maybe he isn't familiar with gaming machines, but the so-called "slot collector" that told him this machine had nothing wrong with it, must be one of our "Repro Builders". If he believed him, (one person), why is he not listening to what a dozen of us are trying to tell him now, and shut this thing down, and relist it correctly, before some poor-soul-of-a-new-collector gets the shaft. All this machine is worth, is for the Mills mechanism, and the two front castings, (only if they are not phoney re-casts), and that's waaaay below what the high bids are now. He should be ashamed of himself, to keep this listing going the way it is!

As for the "Shill" comment, it is well placed. As you do not normally see a new name with a low feedback, bidding so high on something they should have done more homework on. We all know how often this goes on. I have seen more than one seller shut down by eBay for doing so.

On happier note: The Mills machine with the Rockola conversion front, in his other auction, is a truley original machine, as far as I can detect. Only problem, it does not have cast iron front panels. These castings were only produced in aluminum, and most seasoned collectors will know this. There was an earlier model, produced in 1915, that had a similar upper front that was cast iron, but this is not the model. Also, this machine was first produced in 1925 - 1926, and the Rockola conversion was performed a few years later. Many people get mis-constrewed by seeing patent dates on their machines, thinking it is for the machine alone. The 1910 date listed here, was taken from the bar on the reel strips, which is for the 1910 patent for the "Bell Fruit Gum" name. The only true manufacturing date for a machine, will be found on a Mfrs. sticker, glued inside the case. These stickers usually have a serial number, and is many times signed by the assembler. Many machines do not have the paper, and others have either come unglued, or have been replaced with new repro blanks.
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Bird of Paradise on eBay

Postby bakerb95619 » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:50 pm

Don't be surprised if it goes higher. A repro $5 Pepsi tray sold for over $300 at the Liberty Bell Auction, even after the auctioneer said several times that it was a reproduction. The machine looks nice, and it's a working slot machine.

I haven't seen too many of these repro Bird of Paradise machines. I consider myself an "average" slot collector, but I certainly have no idea what parts should be on every machine.

The seller has a good picture of the inside. As for the seller having to say what the machine "doesn't" have, I'm not sure that I agree. My example is a bit exaggerated, but if you're selling a house, do you have to describe it as not having a swimming pool, or not having a 3-car garage? This mainly applies to anyone expecting the description of the 2nd machine to say whether it's iron or aluminum. Ask before bidding.
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Bad Bird

Postby watlingboy » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:54 pm

Barber 95619,

Since you brought up the house analogy. You cannot misrepresent your house and if there is a problem with it, you must disclose it to the buyer or you are liable and this machine has problems. People constantly don't mention replacement strips, repro back door, missing cashbox. Those are minor. What you are dealing with here speaks to the value of the entire machine. I too saw repro advertising sell for $900 at the Fey Auction after it was announced repro. That's different because it was represented as a repro. After that the high bidder has no excuse except to feel foolish. The difference is having it done to you or you doing it to yourself.

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Bad Bird

Postby watlingboy » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:59 pm

And one final thing. The seller did the right thing and disclosed the problems with the machine and it continues to go up in price. It's a fair auction. But I still don't get it.

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Re: Bird of Paradise on eBay

Postby Dave » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:59 pm

bakerb95619 wrote:..... The seller has a good picture of the inside. As for the seller having to say what the machine "doesn't" have, I'm not sure that I agree. My example is a bit exaggerated, but if you're selling a house, do you have to describe it as not having a swimming pool, or not having a 3-car garage? This mainly applies to anyone expecting the description of the 2nd machine to say whether it's iron or aluminum. Ask before bidding.


To me, the problem is that the seller STATED that the machine was cast iron and STATED it was almost 100 years old.

Going back to your example, if you buy a house and the seller STATES that it has a 3 car garage but in fact only has a car port wouldn't you think that is misrepresenting the house just a little bit?

Since the seller stated the machine was cast iron and 100 years old what would you expect him to say if you asked "Is the machine cast iron and how old is it"? Kind of a silly question since he already answered both questions in the description.

I personally think the seller knew that cast iron machines are, in general, more valuable then aluminum.

If the seller did not state the machine was cast iron and you assumed it was and didn't ask then that is a different story. If the seller didn't state the age of the machine and you assumed it was close to 100 years then that is your problem.

The way the machine was described makes the seller sound like an expert when in fact he is not.

He should have just said something like, here is an old slot machine that we are selling. We think it is a Mills and is about 100 years old but we are not experts. If you have any questions please ask and we will do our best to answer them. However, he didn't advertise it that way.

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Re: Bird of Paradise on eBay

Postby Dave » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:04 pm

bakerb95619 wrote:Don't be surprised if it goes higher. A repro $5 Pepsi tray sold for over $300 at the Liberty Bell Auction, even after the auctioneer said several times that it was a reproduction. The machine looks nice, and it's a working slot machine.


To me, the difference is obvious. At the Reno auction, the auctioneer accurately described the tray. If someone wants to pay $300 for a $5 tray then that is their business. In fact he did it several times.

It would have been a different story if the auctioneer described the tray as all original.

Anyway, that is just my opinion.

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Postby Dave » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:25 pm

cashpaidauctions wrote:...

Also, I dont' have a magnet, is there another way to check if it's iron or alum? It's super super heavy, does that tell you anything? It was hard for 2 people to lft.


You don't have any kind of magnet sticking on your fridge and/or you don't have a magnetic tip screwdriver?
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Re: Bad Bird

Postby Dave » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:35 pm

watlingboy wrote:And one final thing. The seller did the right thing and disclosed the problems with the machine and it continues to go up in price. It's a fair auction. But I still don't get it.

Watlingboy


I did a little research on the current high bidder.

His old ID was assoicated with a funeral home that is in IL (right next to WI).

The seller stated that this machine belonged to a guy who recently passed away.

Very interesting, wouldn't you say???? Isn't it also interesting that this new bid comes in right in the middle of all this.
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Postby cashpaidauctions » Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:56 am

A lot of the questions and inquiries I am getting are because they want the parts on it. So I think the bidders are more interested in the parts than the actual entire machine... does that make sense?
Also remember the bidding is higher than normal because we spent extra $ to have it featured on ebay's homepage, therefore it gets more attention and bids, ebay said items that are featured on home page have more bids.

Again, thanks to everyone for being helpful and working things out.

I do accept your apology , and I also apologize if I was rude, again, I was just a bit offended by the way I was initially approached. But let's move on. :) THere's much bigger problems in the world.

If you guys are trying to create more problems out of this, go ahead, but please keep me out of it, I have spent a lot of time coming to this forum trying to address everyone and make sure things are fair. Thanks.
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