Do Reproduction Machines have Serial Numbers?

[Dave]

I don't think reproduction slots have any serial numbers stamped in their castings.

If this is incorrect please let me know.

The reason I ask is that I am thinking about contacting E-Bay to have them change their rules about listing slots. I am going to suggest that for the following machines a user must list the serial number that is stamped in the castings.

Mills War Eagle
Mills Castle Front
Mills Bursting Cherry
Mills Roman Head
Mills Golden Nugget
Watling Treasury
Watling Rol-A-Top

E-Bay's policy is that they do not allow reproduction machines to be listed.

If I can convince them that making people provide the serial number on the above machines then that will greatly reduce the number of reproductions being listed then they might agree.

Do you think this would be a good idea? If so, would you also be willing to contact them? If we get lots of dealers & collectors contacting them at once they might actually do it.

Let me know what you think.

Dave

[rogers1313]

I thought the serial number for a mills was stamped on the front top casting on the top. The mechanical assembly serial number is a little paper tag found on the bottom of mechanism close to the clock.
Is there another place to find the mechanism serial number?

I believe this to be true on my mills Brown front machine.

Also, one of the slot machine vendors sells those little paper tags that go on the mechanism, so this would be easy to forge a new serial number. On the outside castings, I am not sure how hard that would be to do.

On Jennings standard chiefs I know the serial number for the case is stamped on the wood at the bottom. I am not sure where the mechanism serial number is.

Roger S

[Dave]

I thought the serial number for a mills was stamped on the front top casting on the top. The mechanical assembly serial number is a little paper tag found on the bottom of mechanism close to the clock.
Is there another place to find the mechanism serial number?

I believe this to be true on my mills Brown front machine.

Also, one of the slot machine vendors sells those little paper tags that go on the mechanism, so this would be easy to forge a new serial number. On the outside castings, I am not sure how hard that would be to do.

On Jennings standard chiefs I know the serial number for the case is stamped on the wood at the bottom. I am not sure where the mechanism serial number is.

Roger S

On all my Mills machines (from the 30s) the serial number is stamped in the castings. Most of them also have the tag on the inside. However, sometimes that tag is gone.

Since the castings are stamped I would thing that would be a pretty good (and easy) way of verifying a machine is not a fake.

I really don't think most people would go to the effort to attempt to stamp a serial number in their machine. If they did they might break the casting!

Jennings don't have the serial numbers in the castings but in the wood. However, since Jennings have not been reproduced near as much as Mills I really am not too concerned about those.

If we could just stop the Mills that would be a huge start.

Dave

[Mike Gumula]

I could be wrong, but think I remember reading that the early Mills had the serial nos stamped on the front of the front top casting, on the 20's & 30's models they were stamped on the upper right of the top casting, and that sometime in the 40's they quit stamping them in the castings and just put them on the paper on the inside of the cabinet.

Bill Whelan would probably be able to give us a correct answer.

Mike

[Dave]

I could be wrong, but think I remember reading that the early Mills had the serial nos stamped on the front of the front top casting, on the 20's & 30's models they were stamped on the upper right of the top casting, and that sometime in the 40's they quit stamping them in the castings and just put them on the paper on the inside of the cabinet.

Bill Whelan would probably be able to give us a correct answer.

Mike

I think you might be correct. However, the machines I am interested in are the ones that have been reproduced in the thousands (War Eagles, Castle Fronts, etc.). These machines are from the 30's so legitimate ones should have serial numbers stamped in them.

All of my Mills machines from the 30's have the serial numbers stamped in them.

[Mike Gumula]

I understand your concerns, but am not sure what the long term solution is.

Apparently they are popular enough that a lot of people still buy them from the manufacturers knowing they're not antiques. The main problem comes with how they are represented when they get resold, and that is hard to police.

Also,,, I have seen a number of authentic Mills machines from the late 20's & 30's that someone had done good job of filing the serial nos off of the castings (and then smoothing out the filing marks). So not having serial numbers might not always be a good litmus test.

I guess that the best thing to do is what you guys are doing by raising the issues with the sellers and ebay.

Thanks for for you efforts !

Mike

[Dave]

I understand your concerns, but am not sure what the long term solution is.

Apparently they are popular enough that a lot of people still buy them from the manufacturers knowing they're not antiques. The main problem comes with how they are represented when they get resold, and that is hard to police.

Also,,, I have seen a number of authentic Mills machines from the late 20's & 30's that someone had done good job of filing the serial nos off of the castings (and then smoothing out the filing marks). So not having serial numbers might not always be a good litmus test.

I guess that the best thing to do is what you guys are doing by raising the issues with the sellers and ebay.

Thanks for for you efforts !

Mike

Mike:

In 20 years of collecting I have never seen anyone fill in the serial numbers. I am not saying no one nenver did it but why would they?

The only thing that might have happened was the serial number was ground off when machines were illegal or perhaps the machine was stolen.

I can't imagine someone who was restoring a machine would intentionally fill in the serial number. To me, that would hurt the value of the machine.

Dave

[Mike Gumula]

Most of the ones that I've seen with the serial numbers filed off hadn't been restored, so I was pretty sure they were "authentic" machines based on their appearance. It was probably about 25 years ago when I first saw one with the serial numbers filed off (have probably seen only a total of 2 or 3 like that & the were all Mills from the early 30's, and some possibly machines with conversion front castings and an original Mills top casting). I've gotten a little antsy a couple of times at auctions when a War Eagle or Castle Front or Golden Nugget looked too good, and called some friends that used to work at Ancient Slots (that used to be in Las Vegas) and had them put a tape on the front casting of a couple they had in the shop and then compared that with the one I was looking,,, there was usually a noticeable difference when it was a reproduction - that didn't make the auctioneer too pleased with me because he knew exactly what I was doing when I measured across the front.

When I asked other collectors about serial numbers missing on "real" machines, I got a couple of different answers. Someone said that it was so the machine couldn't be traced back to the person that bought it , and someone else said that it was sometimes done to hide the identity of a machine that the operator may not have obtained in a totally legal manner.

If anyone is interested, they might want to run it by Bill Whelan , or someone else that does a lot of restoration work

Mike

[Dave]

Most of the ones that I've seen with the serial numbers filed off hadn't been restored, so I was pretty sure they were "authentic" machines based on their appearance. It was probably about 25 years ago when I first saw one with the serial numbers filed off (have probably seen only a total of 2 or 3 like that & the were all Mills from the early 30's, and some possibly machines with conversion front castings and an original Mills top casting). I've gotten a little antsy a couple of times at auctions when a War Eagle or Castle Front or Golden Nugget looked too good, and called some friends that used to work at Ancient Slots (that used to be in Las Vegas) and had them put a tape on the front casting of a couple they had in the shop and then compared that with the one I was looking,,, there was usually a noticeable difference when it was a reproduction - that didn't make the auctioneer too pleased with me because he knew exactly what I was doing when I measured across the front.

When I asked other collectors about serial numbers missing on "real" machines, I got a couple of different answers. Someone said that it was so the machine couldn't be traced back to the person that bought it , and someone else said that it was sometimes done to hide the identity of a machine that the operator may not have obtained in a totally legal manner.

If anyone is interested, they might want to run it by Bill Whelan , or someone else that does a lot of restoration work

Mike

Mike:

Very interesting stuff. In any case, I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of machines from the 20's & 30's should have serial numbers and those that don't should still be pretty easy to tell if they are legitimate or not.

Do you (or does anyone else) know what the measurements are on the various reproduction machines? That would be interesting information to publish.

Dave

[Dave]

I understand your concerns, but am not sure what the long term solution is.

Apparently they are popular enough that a lot of people still buy them from the manufacturers knowing they're not antiques. The main problem comes with how they are represented when they get resold, and that is hard to police.

Mike

I think a lot of people who buy these in stores think they are buying restored antiques.

Just go in any store that is by a casino that is selling them. They usually do not mention the machine is a reproduction.

What makes it really pathetic is the prices they get for them (especially in Vegas).

Dave