Need help identifying this counter wheel on E-Bay

[Dave]

Does anyone have any idea who made this thing? I am pretty sure it is a foreign machine.

The listing # is 6277741993 in case you want to look at more photos.

A friend of mine is interested in it.



If you have any comments, good or bad, then that would also be appreciated.

Thanks

Dave

[watlingboy]

Appears to be an English Caille Ben Hur. I think you can make out the "B" in CB in the bottom of the middle of the coin head. Quite a few of these exist that were made for English and French market. Wheel configurations vary.

Watlingboy

[rogers1313]

This machine was made by Caille. I have one of these machines that I purchased from a person in England. All he knew about my machine was that it had been in a circus. He purchased it in 1960 when the circus was selling off items like this.

This machine looks like it uses the English Large Penny. US 50cent pieces will work in it also.

The machine probably has 3 pay slides if your lucky. Many of them were retrofited to have on one pay out slide.

I believe that these were made from 1915 to 1930. These are called the Calle Commercial. I don't think they were called the Ben Hur. But I believe the mechanisms are very simular if not the same.

If you would like to have any more details I might be able to help

Thanks,
Roger S

[Dave]

Thanks for the prompt answers.

The starting bid for the machine is $999 and there are no bids on it.

Any ideas for value? I know American Ben Hurs go for $3,500 and up. I paid $4,500 for one about 7 years ago. I know I paid top dollar but I bought it from a reputable collector and it is a quarter and it is in excellent condition.

My gut feeling is that $999 is too high since the wheen has been repainted and the back of the coin head is just tin.

I am going to try to convince my friend to hold out for an American version. He will pay more, but I think it will hold its value.

Dave

Dave

[rogers1313]

Hi again,
I believe these machines go for somewhere between $1000 and $2000.

They have gone for less on eBay as of last year. 600 to 1500.

Fun machine and uses a coin that is no longer made.

Roger

[Mike Gumula]

Re that machine on ebay that might be a Caille machine (6277741993) - I'm not totally sure about what the machine is,,,, but,,,,,for what it's worth.......

I do have one, and based on appearance, do not believe that it was made by Caille. nor do I believe is it nearly as old as most Caille "counterwheel" machines based on the look of the mechanism & case.

Also,,, Based on some information I downloaded off of the internet from the Costa-Haskell Collection, it appears to be very similar to a machine called the "Commercial", that the website said was made in 1925 (or later) by Clement's of London. I also think that I've seen very similar machines listed on ebay before, and they were "thought to be" English made".

However,,,, that being said, most of the ones that I've seen (including those on e-bay) were advertised as being the "right size" for a 50 cent piece, which meant that they were probably meant for use with the old large "English penny" which is the same diameter. This one is advertised as operating with a 25 cent piece, so I'm not sure what that points to........ ???

Finally,,, the seller does try to point out that he's not sure about what the machine is, and tries to give a pretty good overall description, so he does seem to be trying to give out as much information as possible.

If someone is interested, it might be worth asking a few more questions of the seller (such as what sixe coins fit in the "payout slides", how well it operates, etc), as it might be a good deal.


Mike Gumula
Graham , NC

[rogers1313]

You maybe correct. I wasn't there when these were made, however, the collectors in England, France and even in the US that have these machines refer to them as Caille commercials. It could be a good copy of the mechanism. But if you get a close look at the mechanism it is almost exactly like the Ben Hur mechanism.

I have taken one of the these machines totally appart. The frame is an old cast iron. When I received it the cast iron frame was broken in half, so I had a fellow that could weld the cast iron found that it had nickle in the iron. This indicated that it was probably made before 1940 WWII. They stopped putting nickel in cast iron after that time.

The case was veneered with an old walnut veneer, which this machine looks like it has. Each piece of base wood was different. One side was the old style of magonany (solid). You don't find that anymore. One side was a pine, the top and bottom were made of an older style plywood.

The many of color wheels on alot of them had the scrolled victorian style. Mine had this scroll under a crappy orange paint job. This scroll design was used on Caille's. There were at least two type of wheels One with many color strips and one with wider stripes. Mine has the wider strips.

The disk for detecting the payout is made of brass.

This machine for the most part looks exactly like the machine I have.

I can truly not find a Caille manufacturer mark anywhere on my machine, so I am not for sure.

I thought you might be interested in this description.

thanks,
Roger

[Dave]

Roger, Mike, & WatlingBoy:

THANK YOU very much for the prompt replies to my post.

I am not only impressed with the information I received but also with the speed of the information. Less than 24 hours after I posted the questions

FYI, the auction ended early with a Buy It Now bid of $1,400.

Dave

[Mike Gumula]

Sent you an email about this. I think it is an English made counter wheel slot from the 30's - 40's, and am trying to put my hands on theinfo ( I actually bought one off of ebay a few years ago ). Am not sure, but the name "Commercial" keeps popping into my mind.

Mike Gumula
Graham, NC

[PennyMachines]

The origin of these machines is hard to discern, particularly with so much variation in cabinet design and detail.
It would appear that some Caille countertop wheel machines were manufactured for export to Britain (and France) in the 1920-30s. Perhaps the British export version was christened "The Commercial". At least one British manufacturer made copies, presumably because demand was great and perhaps because the demise of Caille Bros Co. meant that supply and patent protection (if any existed) ceased. Quality control was probably not what it had been at Caille Bros., although it's difficult to judge from some of these old mechanisms which have clearly taken a hammering.

Clements Machine Co. Ltd., a London based manufacturer and Caille distributor, was selling the Commercial in 1934. I believe most of the British "Caille" countertop wheel machines were made by Alfred Clement in partnership with Oliver Whales, under the name of Clement & Whales. A popular version was the dog race themed "Greyhound Stadium".

We have a four page discussion on this here: Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines.