Old Postings

[Mike Gumula]

I am still getting old postings from different forums 3-4 times a week, though I think that Dave said to expect that while issues with the new site are being resolved.

That being said, I got one today ( 8/15/2012 ) that referred to an incident in 2011 regarding a machine being sold on ebay that a COCA member/board member supposedly purchased after the fact by contacting the sellernand offering 10 times what it had sold for. I am interested in hearing how the legal action worked out, as that kind of situation should not take place in our hobby. Can you tell me how this worked out ( it was item #220817629337 ) .

Also, should I still be getting these old postings ???

Mike Gumula
Graham,NC

[Dave]

The reason you got notified is because someone posted a reply to the thread today.

If you want to change your notification settings you should go to http://www.coinopcollectorforum.com/ucp.php?i=boardwatch&mode=boardwatch

This URL is listed on every notification email you get.

Dave

[MrCollector]

If you look in the older posts you can find a link to the court case. It looks like it is moving forward as I just saw a legal posting about an arbitrator being appointed. From what I understand is 1 guy bought it off of Ebay which is a legal binding contract. It looks like to other guys were then involved and the original guy did not get the item. I talked to a Lawyer I know and he said it is rather cut and dry.

I found it sad that when this all went down COCA changed their site to eliminate posts and now strangely the ethic statements that were on their old site seem to have disappeared. I guess they protect their own. This does nothing at all to attract new members to the hobby.

[Mike Gumula]

Dave is obviously correct about why I'm getting the old postings as, something was causing me to miss the fact that there were more pages , and those contained the most updated replies (might have just been a senior moment ).

Re the situation regarding COCA members screwing each other onn ebay and otherwise, I hope that doesn't happen frequenty as I think many of us have regarded COCA as a guiding force for the hobby. Lets face it, the hobby has a lot of high dollar involvement, and is therefore highly susceptible to fraud, repos, etc. With Bueschel & Enes gone, who really were somewhat like unappointed guardians that a lot of people looked to, we need to have some sort of guiding force, or the hobby could lose favor and wane in popularity and activity as more new ( and old ) collectors have bad experiences. For instance, how quickly do you think a new collector will jump back in after paying $1000 for a repo/fake Whizball or Baseball game ? I've bee collecting for almost 25 years and one of the things that first fueled my enthusiam was the honesty & willingness to help of many of the old guard. If we lose that sense of connection, we are in for bad times.
mgg

[MrCollector]

Personally I think there is a cancer in our hobby and it is spreading. In once case you had a board member offerring a seller on ebay a higher price then what it sold for and I guess thinking that is okay. You have another guy "improving" trade stimulators to make them look rare. Yet another sells plastic globes on Ebay and says they are the plastic versions to try to imply that the manufacturered offered them that way. I can go on and on..

In some clubs members are thrown out if they sell a reproduction or try to pass off restored paint as new. In COCA they turn the other cheek. Case in point the new website where you cannot post to warn others, and no mention of ethics like the old site. COCA can run games to get people to advertise but what good does that do when a few members are screwing others and nothing is done to address it. This behavoir doesn nothing to draw new collectors in the field.

A simple change would be is if an auction house knowing allows reproduction coin-ops in their auctions they are banned from advertising in COCA.

[nvmos2]

Mrcollector is right on;
coincidentially I used the same words (there is a cancer growing in our hobby) last year when I wrote a guy who was then a leader in COCA.

I wrote him when I first heard about the HSaidman incident and recommended that COCA take the lead in resolving that incident and promoting ethics in the hobby. All he had was excuses why COCA could not get involved. After several emails rebutting his lame excuses, I gave up on him and thought that COCA leadership was weak as water. Turns out he was just being deceitful; he knew all about the incident and was, in fact, involved up to his ears, only not in a positive way; I later learned that he was named as one of the defendants in the lawsuit filed by HSaidman.

There are a lot of good guys in our hobby, unfortunately there are also some guys with more money than ethics at the core of COCA who seem to view the organization as merely a tool to enhance their personal collections. Hopefully, the new leadership can raise some standards.

I periodically list an auction on ebay that warns people about fake slot machines and trade stimulators. I wanted to reference where people could learn more about avoiding getting screwed on a machine; I thought the COCA website would be a good place, but there is not a single word of caution there! The best place I found to learn about fakes/scams is this forum!

My suggestion for COCA: post all the info currently available on fake/scam machines on your website in a section open to general public and update it regularly.

[MrCollector]

If I was on the board and you were emailing me, and I was being accused of something I did not do, I would point blank tell you and not give you lame excuses. Sounds kind of guilty to me.

[Mike Gumula]

I'm as concerned with the image of COCA, as many of you obviously are. I'll have to say that I personally have never had any dealings with other COCA members where I had any complaint.

Regarding the situation with the ebay case that's gone to court, I don't know enough about all of the details to comment one way or another, so I'll with hold any commentary until I see how it plays out. I will point out that when I looked up the case details after someone posted the case number, it appeared to say that the judge had sent the case to arbitration. If that's the case, then it's possible that there actually are two sides to the issue, or he would have just ruled one way or the other. That makes me uncomfortable about drawing any conclusions, until I see how it ends up. Again, I'm not questioning what anyone has said, just reacting to what action the judge took.
Mike Gumula

[nvmos2]

Mike;
Yes; there is ALWAYS two sides to every story, but just because the judge orders arbitration it does NOT mean the judge could "have just ruled one way or the other."

A court often orders arbitration to give the parties a chance at resolution without a costly trial; saves time and money for everyone involved. It's usually done before the court even hears the arguments and weighs the merit of the case, so, theoretically, the judge is no where near making a ruling at that point. In actual practice, the judge may feel he knows how the case will turn out and is giving a wrongdoer a chance to settle the matter before the court imposes a more costly solution. In the case at hand, I don't know which side requested arbitration, let alone the facts presented, so I'm not drawing any conclusions on the case.

My point; I was every surprised and DISAPPOINTED to learn the COCA Officer I had correspondence with turned out to be a defendant in this case. In retrospect, like MrCollector, I felt his responses were very strange indeed, even bizarre. I have no idea why he wasn't upfront with me. At this point, it really doesn't matter.

As you said in an earlier posting; "that kind of situation should not take place in our hobby." I agree wholeheartedly and hope this situation will cause some serious introspection on the part of those who see nothing wrong in interfering in another collector's completed deal.

Jim

[MrCollector]

Seems like COCA Bylaws does have a provision to address this. It is under article 2 of their bylaws. 2/3 Vote by the board removes them.

Also look at this:

The purpose of the Coin Operated Collectors Association (C.O.C.A.) is to stimulate knowledge of, and interest in, the collection of vintage coin operated machines in order to:
Bring together and promote fellowship among members.
Educate members through meetings, publications and the internet.
Cooperate with those seeking information concerning these machines, their history, collection and preservation.
Promote fair, ethical practices, dealing and sales within the club and hobby.

So you have a COCA member buying and pay for a machine on Ebay. We have all seen that it is a legal contract if you have ever bid on Ebay. A Board Member then offers the Seller more money and his friend who is also a COCA member now has the machine. I think we can all read between the lines on that one. The original COCA member never gets the machine he bought. You then have another COCA Member on this site saying he contacted COCA about this matter and got a run around and was blown off.

So is COCA going to walk the talk or allow this behavior to continue to ruin the hobby, discourage current collectors and chase newbies away.